David Clayton Interviewed by Tammy Peterson

On Christianity, Christian Art and Culture and Saving the West with Beauty

Here is my interview with Tammy Peterson. Tammy is an excellent interviewer on matters of faith and culture from a Catholic perspective despite being a relatively new Christian convert who as only received into the Church this past Easter.

Her approach displays a genuine curiosity and a sincere desire to learn from the interviewee. This made for what was, from my perspective, a very enjoyable and wide-ranging conversation in which I felt I was given a sufficient opportunity to communicate what I thought was important. I have given you Tammy's show notes below.

https://youtu.be/OYCm7BeurRU?si=Hgjqh5tQO6Chnjrp

Show notes:
David Clayton, a prominent UK-born artist, writer, and educator currently based in the US, is globally acknowledged for his artistic work and spiritual teachings. As Provost of Pontifex University, Clayton has a renowned Master of Sacred Arts program and serves as Artist-in-Residence at the Princeton-based Scala Foundation. Regularly contributing to respected publications and blogs like scalafoundation.org and newliturgicalmovement.org, he is also the creator of The Way of Beauty process, offering personal formation to people of varied backgrounds. Clayton's acclaimed works include The Little Oratory, The Way of Beauty, The Vision for You, and Veiling to Reveal, while his commissioned pieces beautify churches in the UK and US. His illustrious career further includes a seven-year tenure as Artist-in-Residence at Thomas More College of Liberal Arts.

Find more from David:

The Vision for You, How To Discover the Life You Were Made For: https://www.amazon.com/Vision-You-Dis...

Veiling to Reveal: John Paul II’s Theology of the Body and the Role of Clothing in Christian Art and Anthropology: https://a.co/d/9At9yRy

The Way of Beauty: Liturgy, Education, and Inspiration for Family, School, and College: https://a.co/d/bo56rYB

The Little Oratory: A Beginner's Guide to Praying in the Home: https://a.co/d/1Ihdgfi

Information on The Way of Beauty workshops and personal coaching: https://thewayofbeauty.org/formation Blog: https://thewayofbeauty.org/blog

Contact: https://thewayofbeauty.org/contact

To connect with Tammy Peterson: Instagram:   / tammy.m.peterson   Facebook:   / tammypetersonpodcast   TikTok:   / tammypetersonpodcast   Twitter:   / tammy1peterson   Rumble: https://rumble.com/c/TammyPetersonPod...

The Nativity Icon Explained

To mark the Christmas season, I thought I would feature this beautiful icon, painted by my teacher, Aidan Hart (aidanharticons.com), which reflects the nativity accounts from the gospels of Matthew and Luke, which will be familiar to many. These are the main features of this image:

At the top, we see the guiding star. The star's design incorporates a threefold ray structure indicating trinitarian action, with its darker central portion representing the mystery of God. 

The Blessed Virgin Mary's recumbent position at a diagonal is intended to visually connect the upper and lower parts of the image, establishing an axis between the celestial and terrestrial realms. This emphasizes her unique role in the Incarnation, in which God took his humanity from her, which could only have happened with her cooperation.

The Christ child is wrapped in swaddling clothes, which provide a visual connection to burial garments¹, and so establish a visual prophecy of his Passion and death.

The ox and ass come from a prophetic text from the book of Isaiah²: 'The ox knows its owner, and the ass its master's crib; but Israel does not know, my people does not understand'³ and the prophecy of Habakkuk in the Septuagint, that, 'In the midst of two living creatures you shall be known'⁴. It is another indication of the humility of the Creator that Almighty God should become man in the abode of lowly animals, which become the primary witnesses of his birth.

The manger, the animal feeding vessel, symbolises an altar on which the Lamb of God is sacrificed and a tomb, prefiguring his death again.

The human figures are arranged in two distinct groupings: shepherds and Magi, representing the Jewish people and Gentile nations⁵, respectively, and between them, their presence indicates that this event is good news to all people. Indeed, this is good news for all creatures, not just man. We have considered the lowly animals already, but we also see angels, the spiritual beings who herald the good news.

The angelic presence establishes a counterpoint to the Fall narrative. In contrast to humanity's encounter with fallen angels⁶, these divine messengers appear to Mary⁷, Joseph⁸, and the shepherds⁹, receiving obedient responses in each instance.

The composition includes the apocryphal detail of midwives attending to the infant Christ, derived from the Proto-Evangelium of James (Chs. 19-20) and Pseudo-gospel of Matthew (Ch 13), serving to emphasise again Christ's human nature.

Finally, a significant figurative element is the inclusion of Joseph, who is set apart, listening to the prophet Isaiah. This is intended to communicate that although he initially doubted the Virgin Birth, his doubt quickly became acceptance. Isaiah is reassuring Joseph that what he is witnessing is the fulfilment of his messianic prophecy.

The staff that Isaiah holds is painted as a budding branch evoking the stem of Jesse: 'There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots. And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord'¹⁰.

Notes: 

¹Luke 2:7, 12; ²Isaiah 1:3; ³Isaiah 1:3 (RSVCE); ⁴Habakkuk 3:2 (LXX); ⁵Matthew 2:1-12; ⁶Genesis 3; ⁷Luke 1:26-38; ⁸Matthew 1:20-24; ⁹Luke 2:8-14; 10. Isaiah 11:1-2 (RSVCE); ¹¹Isaiah 7:14

Jack and the Fallen Giants - A Childrens Story by Jonathan Pageau

From our friend Jonathan Pageau comes the latest in an acclaimed and growing series of fairy tales, written by Jonathan and beautifully illustrated by Elouise Scherrer.

In the storytelling tradition older than the Brothers Grimm comes Jack and the Fallen Giants. This numinous retelling of a beloved classic allows modern readers to reclaim the beauty of this well-beloved fairy tale through insightful storytelling and iconic illustrations. Like all great fairy tales, Jack and the Fallen Giants is written to be enjoyed by children but contains hidden treasures for readers of all ages.

Eloise Scherrer beautifully illustrates the book. As a young artist, Eloise was deeply inspired by the works of J.R.R. Tolkien and has spent her career giving shape and color to the best of European fantasy literature. Her attention to depth, textures, movement, and light creates whimsical and vivid illustrations that draw the reader into a realm of enchantment and imagination.

Order from the Symbolic World website: https://store.thesymbolicworld.com/

Tales for Once and Ever
Tales for Once and Ever is a series of eight interlocking fairy tales working towards a symphony of storytelling. With repeating themes and patterns in both story and illustrations,  with recurring characters and situations that always honor the source material, this series is an invitation to dive back into a lived experience that is expressed in all of our folk and fairy tales. The Brothers Jacob and Wilhem Grimm did not write down anything "new" when they collected and published their stories in 1812. Rather, their publications preserved a tradition that related a lived experience through symbols.
This series is a return to an ancient storytelling style, a way to partake of the lived experience our ancestors were sharing in their homes, with their families, and in their communities long before modern times. This series also enhances that renewed story experience with striking illustrations that are invented alongside the narrative in a way that invites us — even implicates us — in the symbolic landscape through details that have always been hiding there in these ancient stories — like breadcrumbs — all along.

Order from the Symbolic World website: https://store.thesymbolicworld.com/

Vol 1 - Snow White and the Widow Queen
Vol 2 - Jack and the Fallen Giants
Vol 3 - Rapunzel and the Evil Witch (Spring 2025)
Vol 4 - The Valiant Little Tailor (Fall 2025)
Vol 5 - Sleeping Beauty (Spring 2026)
Vol 6 - The Boy and the Giant (Fall 2026)
Vol 7 - Rumplestiltskin (Spring 2027)
Vol 8 - Cinderella (Fall 2027)

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Praise for the first volume, Snow White and the Widow Queen.

"Fairy tales are meant to delight, and Snow White is one of the most treasured of that tradition. Now we can be doubly delighted by the reimagining of the legend by a masterful storyteller, Jonathan Pageau. Accompanied by the luminous illustrations of a gifted artist, Heather Pollington, the traditional tale has been transformed into a magical synthesis of word and image. Snow White and the Widow Queen presents a thrilling and mysterious take on the classic, mingling the rudiments of fairy with the greatest myths ever told. This retelling of the beloved fairy tale is sure to please readers of all ages, leaving children and adults spellbound."

- Robert Jackson, Executive Director, Great Hearts Institute

A new Symbolic World Store

In launching Jack and the Fallen Giants, we are also introducing the New Symbolic World store, where other books, prints and merchandise are offered, including the GodsDog series, a series of graphic novels exploring Biblical epic in a way that has not been seen before.  Essays on Symbolism, like The Symbolism of Snow White and The Secrets of Godsdog are also available there.https://store.thesymbolicworld.com/

Why Beauty Matters

And Art for Art’s Sake is Anti-Human

The purpose of art and the role of beauty in the culture have been subjects of ongoing debate. While some view art as existing purely for its own sake - ‘art for art’s sake’ - divorced from any broader utility or message, others argue that art must serve a didactic or ideological function. The traditional Christian perspective, however, offers a distinct understanding that avoids these extremes, and the result is art for God's sake, which, if done well, will always be art for our sake too.

The interior of St Mark's Cathedral Venice: Is this art for art's sake, or art for God's sake?
(Rob Hurson, CC BY-SA 4.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0, via Wikimedia Commons)

Central to the Christian view is recognising the profound unity of the material and spiritual dimensions in the human person. As beings composed of both body and soul, humans possess material and spiritual needs. Consequently, the purpose of art cannot be reduced solely to aesthetic considerations or purely practical or ideological aims. Rather, true art must harmonise these aspects, reflecting and serving the totality of human nature, material and spiritual.

This understanding is rooted in Christian anthropology, which sees beauty not as a superfluous addition to an object's utility but as an integral part of its purpose. When an object is truly beautiful, its beauty is seen as a sign that its purpose is in accord with God's governance of the world—a reflection of divine inspiration or the beauty of Creation itself.

Take, for example, something as mundane as a toothbrush. While its primary purpose is the practical one of cleaning teeth and promoting bodily health, a well-designed toothbrush incorporates elements of beauty that speak to a broader understanding of human well-being. Its harmonious design serves its practical function and invites the user to consider the more profound implications of oral hygiene for overall health and spiritual vitality. While few will consciously contemplate such things when brushing their teeth (least of all first thing in the morning or last thing at night!), most of us, even with something as simple as a toothbrush, would not choose an ugly one in preference to a beautiful one, given the choice. This means that they are accepting the invitation of beauty at some level.

This principle is even more evident and more important in works of art with a direct spiritual or liturgical purpose, such as sacred art or architecture. In these cases, beauty plays a crucial role in elevating the human spirit and facilitating the contemplation of the divine. For instance, the beauty of a cathedral is not merely an aesthetic embellishment but a vital component of its purpose as a house of worship, drawing the hearts and minds of the faithful towards heaven.

The Christian perspective recognises that individuals possess free will and can respond positively or negatively to the call of beauty. While beauty can inspire a deepening desire for virtue and a closer relationship with God, it can also be rejected or dismissed as mere sentimentality.

Ultimately, the traditional Christian view sees art and beauty not as ends in themselves but as means of elevating the human person and facilitating a deeper engagement with the spiritual realm. Beauty is not a superficial adornment but a reflection of the divine order – a sign that an object or work of art fulfils its intended purpose in harmony with God's design.

In this understanding, the apprehension of beauty is not merely an emotional response but a profound experience that can engage the intellect, will, and emotions in a multifaceted way. It is a call to contemplate the divine, to pursue virtue, and to recognise the unity of the material and spiritual dimensions of human existence.

By integrating these perspectives, the traditional Christian view offers a nuanced and holistic approach to the purpose of art and the role of beauty – one that recognises their intrinsic value while situating them within a broader framework of human flourishing and spiritual growth.. 

One presumes that even Our Lady cleaned her teeth, and if she had done so, even this humble activity would have been done gracefully and beautifully.

Geoff Yovanovic, Alumnus of the Way of Beauty Program and Rising Star in Classical Architecture Named First Partner at Prestigious Firm in Atlanta, Georgia

In a significant move that signals both recognition of talent and a new chapter for a renowned architectural firm, Geoffrey Yovanovic, AIA, has been named the first partner at Norman Davenport Askins Architects. The firm will shortly be amended to reflect the name of its first partner (and may have done so by the time you read this). I am particularly pleased to see his progress as it bears witness to my assertion that beauty has a premium on the open market and is an investment of time and effort that pays rich dividends. 

A graduate of the University of Miami with a Bachelor's degree in architecture and the University of Notre Dame, where he earned his Master's degree, I met Geoff nearly 15 years ago at a Way of Beauty summer program I offered at Thomas More College of Liberal Arts shortly after he graduated from the University of Miami. We've stayed in touch ever since, and it's been a pleasure to watch him flourish and establish himself in the field while always wishing to follow via pulchritudinis - the Way of Beauty - in his professional work. I was delighted when Geoff told me, for example, that he had submitted a church design with a cloister for his successful application to Notre Dame's School of Architecture.

Yovanovic's expertise extends beyond his professional practice. When I was looking for a teacher who could create a course on the principles of Christian architecture for Pontifex University’s Master of Sacred Arts program, Geoff was the first name that occurred to me, and we are delighted to have him on our faculty. He created a course on the principle of beauty in architecture, sharing his knowledge and passion with the next generation of designers. He is also actively involved in the Institute of Classical Architecture & Art, for whom he also teaches.

Geoff told me: I had begun to follow David's blog thewayofbeauty.org shortly after graduation.  A passing reference to beauty's importance in architecture school spurred more interest in the Way of Beauty blog.  Architectural fundamentals such as proportioning, order, historic precedence had been introduced to me in school but these were all atomized at the university.  The Way of Beauty course helped unite these scattered seemingly disunited design principles, prioritize them, and direct them towards their proper end.  The two week naturalistic drawing course was enriched through the practice and explanation of the Liturgy of the Hours along with David's engaging lectures. This early foundation in beauty has proven a blessing for me.  Without this foundation, the busyness and business or architecture could cloud the objective of art and architecture which is always ordered to our ultimate end.  Teaching for Pontifex has provided me the great opportunity to share these lessons and lay that all important foundation for my students."

When I was looking for a teacher who could create a course on the principles of Christian architecture for Pontifex University’s Master of Sacred Arts program, Geoff was the first name that occurred to me. We are delighted to have him on our faculty.

Since joining Norman Davenport Askins Architects in 2015, Yovanovic has contributed to the growing reputation of an already highly respected firm. The firm is known for its meticulous attention to historical detail and collaboration with skilled craftsmen. It has won numerous design awards, and Yovanovic's work has played a significant role in these accolades.

Principles of harmonious proportion inform Geoff’s designs. A recently completed home showcases this approach, with carefully staggered window sizes and frame proportions creating a naturally pleasing aesthetic. This attention to classical principles, combined with an understanding of modern living requirements, has become a hallmark of Yovanovic's work. This adaptation of traditional design principles to contemporary living is necessary for a living tradition that participates in the universal principles of beauty but in a way that connects with people today. In order to be able to do this, the architect must have an understanding of the tradition and how these principles are manifested in all buildings from the most magnificent cathedrals and grand civic buildings to humble (and some not so humble) beautiful homes. The designs should not be identical in each case, but the embedded principle of cosmic beauty appropriately expressed in each case, will direct the souls of all to the Creator of the cosmos, who is God.

It is important, if we want a culture of beauty that today’s architects understand, as Geoff does in common with architects of the past, that all human activity can be ordered, through the beauty of the environment, to our heavenly end.

It is heartening to see a firm like Norman Davenport Askins Architects with Geoff Yovanovic as its newest partner, perpetuating timeless, beautifully crafted homes that honor the past while embracing the future.

A Modern Medium For Artists Looking to Offer Traditional Beauty To Our Churches

After a recent article suggesting that light, portable images and furnishings, such as a rood screen, might be a way to beautiful sacred spaces at a reasonable cost, I was delighted to hear again from the well-known Catholic sculptor Thomas Marsh. He wanted to tell me about a medium that he uses, which he felt would help people looking for economical and lightweight sculptures and sculpted furnishings that nevertheless have a permanent look - white gypsum cement. This was new to me, and what he described was worth passing on to you.

I've featured Thomas’s work before, notably in an interview with Dr. Carrie Gress. What sets Thomas apart in the world of classical naturalism is his deep understanding of sacred art. Unlike many skilled artists who blur the lines between sacred and secular, Thomas knows that sacred art should idealize its subjects more emphatically, emphasizing universal human values over particular details, but without neglecting the particular altogether in a subtle balance of naturalism and idealism. When artists get this right, and I think Thomas does, the result is sculptures worthy of veneration, rather than what we often see, portraits of models dressed as holy figures, albeit skillfully rendered.

Thomas wrote to me about white gypsum cement: "It's in the plaster family, though much harder and more durable. It's strictly an interior material. I often do relief sculptures for projects for the Church, and the beauty of reliefs is that they are sufficiently subtle to harmonise with architecture, when appropriate. When focused upon, they lend themselves to detailed representation, to almost any degree of verisimilitude with proper lighting from above. Finally, they are VERY economical to produce, ship, and install."

To showcase this versatile medium, I've included some examples of Thomas' relief works. There's also a photo of a large ensemble he created for St. Mary of the Immaculate Conception in Fredericksburg, VA. The centerpiece is a 6'6" corpus cast in fiberglass-reinforced gypsum cement with light polychrome—i.e. coloration. Despite its impressive size, it weighs just 90 pounds!

Contact Thomas Marsh through thomasmarshsculptor.net